My emails refuting apologist’s crazy justification of biblical genocide in Numbers 31;
Kyle,
Thank you for your time and effort. You seem to be an intelligent and reasonable person, and I suppose if we were discussing an issue without the weight of your faith and religiosity blinding you to another possible worldview, one of enlightenment and rationality, we’d agree on quite a few things. That is the only reason I continue this correspondence. Unfortunately, like most apologists, you run the spectrum of attempting the use of logical argument when it supports an individual assumption regarding an issue of your faith, then ignoring, refuting (or subverting) the use of logic if it fails. Augustine was a pro at this LOL Pascal’s wager is a great example of the use of sloppy reasoning that seems to support faith while in actuality, destroys it (i.e. god can’t delineate between a real commitment and a insincere one? (“Be either hot or cold in your love for me, for if you are lukewarm I will vomit you out of my mouth”)
A brief aside, as a short biography, I was raised Catholic and in my teenage years one of my best friends was a priest (and no. it was the secular school teacher who molested me 😦 not him). Once he jokingly called me “his bellwether” as, during his sermons he would watch me and use my wandering attention as his guide to how long he could sermonize before losing the congregation 😉 My attitude was, that if god existed, then my only choice was to be a priest, as his existence would overwhelm the importance of earthy things. But if there was not enough evidence, then I should stop wasting time being silly and superstitious. To give you an indication of the seriousness of my commitment to understand this issue, I’ve attached a link to a paper I wrote;
“A Brief Paper on Religion and the Development of Man“ http://1drv.ms/1qYRVZB
Now, to the meat of the matter. MY ORIGINAL ARGUMENT had nothing to do with the
“culpability” of your god as to the “responsibility” for “evil” and so I do not see the relevance of your argument. My question was more down to earth and related to the concepts of justice, equity and mercy. My statements were directed at the reprehensible actions of your god in his desire to perform genocide and of the detailed and horrific instructions he gave his people. And even more notable, your refusal to even admit that the actions of your god showed a clear lack of justice, equity and mercy much less compassion. I’ll refer you to this little known study (little known because it was swept under the rug).
http://maxblumenthal.com/2010/08/1963-survey-majority-of-israeli-jewish-youth-couldsupport-genocide-against-arabs/
while more related to modern Israeli/Palestine conflict, it does demonstrate the double standard I have been trying to expose your thinking to. If you didn’t check it out, it is an attempt to demonstrate the double standard of religious people like you. You seem to have a blind eye
to genocidal outrages when your god perpetrates them, while harshly condemning the “atrocities” when accomplished by people for non-biblical reasons, (i.e. without your god’s benediction) Did you ever take the time to view the video I sent you? It exemplifies this same tendency in the pious to use ethical double standards. This is what I asked you to revue, the actual ACTS committed in the name of that god and his DETAILED instructions on the exact manner on how the genocide should dispassionately be performed, detailing the execution thousands of human beings, including innocent swaddling babes in wanton excess. Sounds disturbingly like a NAZI holocaust, doesn’t it? How the genocide that was so ruthlessly and methodically committed on the Canaanites any different? But then THEY were all “just following orders”, weren’t they?)
Even the genesis story you have recapitulated here demonstrates, to the secular mind, the inequity and unmerciful nature of the god of the old testament. One who creates beings in his image, condemned to live among (and like) the animals, but you give them self-awareness and a powerful mind with innate curiosity beyond the capability of the other animals. Then you require them to live simply with the animals, to forswear using their higher intellectual capacity, holding forever forbidden …KNOWLEDGE. With this knowledge, as far as the story goes, there is contained the comprehension of good and evil, but forget that qualification, because your god had a militant and violent “angel” throw them out of paradise. NOT for “evil” acts or intents, but merely FOR THE ACQUISITION OF KNOWLEDGE of the world around them! Think about that, he PUNISHED his creations and all their descendants FOREVER (to an eternal damnation full of suffering) for utilizing the intelligence HE GAVE THEM and that put them above and apart from the animals. Let me ask you, was this biblical paradise worth staying as two ignorant savages that never used their brains, that never questioned the world about them, who never STROVE to better themselves, and lived “like animals”? That is usually a derogatory statement, “THOSE GUYS LIVE LIKE ANIMALS”, as god intended? I have debated with theologians the quality of mercy from a god who proclaims, “Do not offer me sacrifices, I am a god of mercy”. Who then requires a HUMAN SACRIFICE to atone for actions that are arguable NOT evil but rather “natural” for the beings he created. This sacrifice must be made before he will “mercifully” forgive this “original sin” that any rational human being (or supernatural being) would be strained to define as a wrong action. Remember, your god did not become angry because his creations “sinned” or did evil things, but merely for fulfilling the nature of their being, the nature he installed into them, for acquiring “knowledge” and attempting to understand the nature of this “creation”.
Actually, I have developed my own little parable about this era. My theory is that Lucifer, the Light bringer, was appalled at unfair and inequitable nature of god’s treatment of and attitude towards his creations. I postulate that this honorable lieutenant, the right hand of the creator, objected on grounds of fairness that these poor creatures should not be misused in this way. So then it follows that it was Lucifer who stood up for righteousness, in conflict with a hard and merciless god.
Actually, the bible hints at this role of Lucifer, in that it claims he stood up for basic human nature and values (values later considered by the pious as “sinful”) against a cruel and merciless god. But you know who writes the histories? Yes, the victor LOL
Well, I hope I have entertained you, maybe brought a smile, but more, I hope I might have broken the cycle of religiosity that may contaminate your thought process, just as it did in those Israeli students from that lost study. I do encourage you to revisit that Mr. Deity video (I hope you actually took the time to watch it). http://youtu.be/3lmi4YJo1tU
I encourage you to take the time to check out his entire series, Brian is TERRIBLY funny. Some of his fan letters actually come from theologians and preachers who request the rights to play certain videos to their congregation. (I think the one about the sacrifice of Jesus was used at many Easter services)
Of course, if you didn’t even take the time to watch this one video, then I obviously have wasted a lot of time on a person who is so unquestioning in his world view that his closed mind rusted shut by blind unquestioning faith. I actually wonder if you’ve even read anything I’ve written with a conscientious, intellectually honest and open attitude, with an attempt to understand the viewpoint espoused. It seems you only saw your reply.
Recently, I’ve had christians repeatedly disrespect my worldview by telling me that eventually “Jesus will light up my heart and I will accept him”. Until then I would never have considered the same attitude and tell a christian, “maybe one day the light of reason and rationality will light up your brain and you’ll abandon iron age superstition”
Take care and enjoy life, this is the only one you get and you should be grateful for that “miracle” (of science)
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2014 17:09:22 -0500
Subject: Re: I read your section on numbers 31
From: kyle@YYYYYYYpress.org
Hello Tim,
Thanks for writing back. I think a point by point rebuttal is unproductive at this junction, since it seems there is very little that you and I actually agree on. I will proceed to address only one point, and then we can move to the next when we are through with it. You asked me to provide a logical argument not a “philosophical straw man.” I would certainly contend that I have done that, while I understand you disagree, I’ll give it one more shot.
Premise 1: An all-powerful, super natural God could create a being that is inherently good, but still possesses the ability to create evil (sin), and not be culpable for the evil that the created being brought into the creation.
Premise 2: Adam and Eve, and subsequently every human being, were and has been created good, yet possessed the ability to create evil.
Premise 3: All evil that has come into the world has been brought into the world by beings that were created inherently good, but with the ability to create evil (sin).
Logical Conclusion: If all evil has been brought into the world by beings that were created inherently good with the ability to sin, then God is not culpable for the evil (sin) that has been brought into the world.
This is a logical argument. It is not philosophical, per se. Neither is it a straw man. It directly addresses at least one of your points. Therefore, please show me, in as little verbiage as possible, the problem with any of the premises or the conclusion. Thanks. Sincerely, Kyle Butt
On Fri, Sep 5, 2014 at 10:25 PM, Tim Kiehl wrote:
Unlike you, my points were not made in judgment of the people blamed for “choosing with free will” to displease your god (ie do ” evil”) and so be condemned by god to outrageous horrendous punishment NOR do I call as an original decision to perform evil those acts of his minions driven to perform evil by enacting their gods horrendously evil punishment, but rather pointedly circles around your supposedly merciful god’s actions such a as demanding innocent children to be killed or enslaved because their parents “displeased” him. THE original EVIL sits in the hand of your god! These crimes then committed in his name by his creations now also made evil only in following his hateful demands Your comments loaded all responsibility for terrible crimes of genocide and child murder and enslavement again on his creations and not on the originator of these heinous murderous orders. You made no comment on anything to do with any responsibility of performing with mercy and just action a reasonable and merciful punishment on your god’s part, again merely blaming his imperfect creations. These excess cruelties where your gods PLEASURE? I think most of the hateful, and may I even say evil acts ORIGINATED WITH THE DEITY, not decisions of the creations. You keep blind to these facts. No HUMAN would be called anything but a monster if he ordered his minions to perform such horrendous CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY. What human parent would deem ANY acts of their children to be worthy of such demonic vengeance taken even to second generation of innocent grand children?
You keep focusing on the ORIGINAL “sinners” with the freedom to choose, who at every instance have the ability to choose rightly and remain perfect, but to choose to do evil and mar his own perfection? Where is the creator’s responsibility? Even if THEY are guilty of evil is you god’s response commensurate with his supposed values of justice and mercy? Then consider the people he orders to commit the genocide. Has he NOW sullied them with the evil of their actions? Are THEY responsible for these acts and held accountable, or is the ultimate responsibility for these horrendously evil acts rest on your god?
In your repeatedly circular arguments you not only refuse to address the real questions I make on a point by point basis and instead repeatedly and unsuccessfully put forth the “STRAW MAN ARGUMENT” that your god has no responsibility for his actions or for the outcome of decisions he makes while each and every evil is the result of man’s frailty only, the straw man he created.
Has your blind faith blinded you from your own humanity? Is your god blinded to those same humanitarian values he “sometimes” preaches (when he’s not supporting genocide, rape, pillage, plunder, slavery, stonings, torture, pillory etc. IN HIS OWN BIBLE?)
PROVE YOU READ AND COMPREHEND MY STATEMENTS WITH A SUITABLY LOGICAL POINT BY POINT REBUTTAL, Not a meaningless philosophical apologetic Straw Man argument.
Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 10:33:18 -0500
Subject: Re: I read your section on numbers 31
From: kyle@YYYYYYYpress.org
Hello Tim,
Thanks for writing. I can see that this conversation is apparently not going to get us anywhere. In your response to me you wrote: Does your god not have to accept responsibility for his actions in creating such faulty and frail creatures?
I responded by saying:
Now, let’s ask this question. Is it possible for a being to be created perfect, and you did not answer the question. I tried to specifically deal with exactly what you said (at least part of it, taking it a little at a time for the sake of a productive discussion). I’m not sure what you are using the term “logic” to mean, but the question that I posed is a very logical one and has an actually, logically correct answer to it. Sincerely, Kyle Butt
On Thu, Sep 4, 2014 at 9:40 PM, Tim Kiehl wrote:
Kyle, you bandy about in the same old silly philosophical concepts such as perfection and evil and choice while ignoring the down to earth practical points I tried to make clear to you. Try actually reading what I wrote and attempt to understand the logic of my statements before you fog your mind with preconceived notions, then to blindly and repetitively spout out the same old dreary YYYYYYY without taking the mental effort to understand in earnest the logic and point of thought I so eloquently made. You will never “see” real logic as long as you are blinded by preconceived notions that crowd out actual new thoughts. Did you even READ my statement? Your reply is so innocent of thought as to indicate that you did not. You entirely miss the point and speak as if a child responded.
Tue, 2 Sep 2014 20:35:42 -0500
Subject: Re: I read your section on numbers 31
From: kyle@YYYYYYYpress.org
Hey Tim,
Good to hear back from you. As you may can imagine, I still did not see any examples of our convoluted logic and nonsense. But I think I see where we may can make some progress. You stated:
Does your god not have to accept responsibility for his actions in creating such faulty and frail creatures?
Now, let’s ask this question. Is it possible for a being to be created perfect, with the freedom to choose, and at every instance have the ability to choose rightly and remain perfect, but to choose to do evil and mar his own perfection? Kyle Butt
On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 2:47 PM, Tim Kiehl wrote:
Dear Kyle,
I appreciate your response but stand by my statements. Your logic is circular and convoluted, making no real sense, literally nonsense.
You claim that these Canaanites were of such an evil nature (even though they were made in the image of your god?) that they were such an abomination in the eyes of their creator that they had to be exterminated down to the last child, who supposedly were so tarnished by the exposure to this evil that they were beyond redemption. Do you actually believe in your heart that a child can be so evil or be so certain of it’s POTENTIAL of evil that he is beyond redemption in the eyes of your god? Everyone has a potential for evil, just as they do for goodness. In most Abrahamic faiths children are not even considered to be capable of adult decisions regarding faith (i.e. Catholic Confirmation, Jewish Bar Mitzvah) much less the ability to distinguish between good and evil. Isn’t forgiveness and redemption the main thrust of your religion and the basis of your faith? Yet you worship a god that that is repeatedly shown to have so little capacity for mercy and compassion that he demands the horrible massacre of these innocent children. Children he created in his image and given free will but not deserving a chance to grow up and mature and possibly become a good, possibly even saintly, person?
In modern times we have been exposed to such frighteningly evil people such as Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao. Any REASONABLE PERSON would claim that each and every one of these creatures were examples of the epitome of evil. Did god do ANYTHING about this evil? Did he reach down and flick off Hitler’s head? Did he make a plague infest the Kremlin? Were these Canaanites, even their immature children, as evil as these modern monsters? Every one of them, including the children? Yet he demanded their extermination, while allowing these other evils to persist and flourish.
You speak of your god’s actions as if it equates to the “tough love” of a devoted parent. I pose to you that if a modern “human” parent used such harsh, even terrible, discipline on a child to “teach” moral behavior that, most assuredly, ANY child protection agency would promptly and permanently remove the children from that custody for their own protection. This is a distorted view of love, morality and responsibility. Does your god not have to accept responsibility for his actions in creating such faulty and frail creatures? Is it merciful or compassionate, even JUST, to put the onus on them for these frailties and faults when he was the one that originated them/ If he is omnipowerful why didn’t he do a better job of creation? Many christians send their small children to camps where they are bombarded with fearsome images of a terrible damnation and indoctrinated to a life of fear. If faith in your god is so rewarding and so fulfilling to you as an adult, why do you feel it necessary to terrify children at a young age attempting to frighten them into the need for worship. Do you have so little faith that you are afraid of allowing them to mature and make an adult consenting decision, as you did, regarding their faith?
Why fear a “god of mercy”? Maybe because he’s not that merciful? That, in fact, he was a god (parent?) that was so unwilling to forgive his own imperfect creations (children?) for decisions they made with the brains he provided them and the benefit (or burden?) of free will? A god that was so lacking in mercy, so unforgiving, so judgmental, that the only way he would find it in his heart and being to allow redemption and salvation was to require, no demand, a HUMAN SACRIFICE? One that you ritually cannibalize in your weekly worship, drinking of his blood and eating of his flesh? Yet, that is the god described in your bronze age testament!
Do yourself a favor and watch this video. Maybe it will stimulate you to review your conclusions regarding the actions you find the need to so heartily apologize for. Brian Dalton makes my point with much more eloquence and a touch of humor,
http://youtu.be/3lmi4YJo1tU?list=UUOrE5EE4JH3CGwDQTsA2t_A
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2014 10:38:44 -0500
Subject: Re: I read your section on numbers 31
From: kyle@YYYYYYYpress.org
Hello Tim,
Thanks for writing. We appreciate all feedback, although you can imagine we would respectfully disagree with your conclusion. Can you provide me with a specific example of the “convoluted logic” that you believe you see in the article? Thanks. Kyle Butt
On Fri, Jul 25, 2014 at 2:06 AM, Tim wrote:
Are you people insane? Your convoluted logic reminded me of a serial killer explaining the righteousness of his actions. REALLY???
T.A.Kiehl©2016